Curse

Cuilan · Nov 14, 2010, 01:50 AM // 01:50

I ran...

Healing Burst
Dwayna's Kiss
Vigorous Spirit
Protective Spirit
Seed of Life
[Optional]
Selfless Spirit
Renew Life

...for WiK.

I haven't used it enough to know what I really want for the optional, but likely Air of Superiority.

LifeInfusion · Nov 14, 2010, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

My suspicion is that dropping healing that far would really hurt your ability to spot heal decently.

ZB is where the PUGs can be found to test with. Bogroots was the ZB of the day.

SY! is not an unreasonable testing condition. Most decent teams have SY! somewhere.

In case you weren't paying attention, the UA was awful, and I deliberately left them in the team because they were awful. It was essentially a 1-monk backline.

If you're running 2 party-healing monks for a backline, your team already sucks...

1. Taking your numbers, it has a very similar party HPS as DH/HD (40heal/4.75cycle vs 160heal/16cycle). It cannot be that one is great for party healing but the other can only handle light pressure.

2. Spikes imply a mitigation failure, which in turn means we're already moving outside of presumptions where a monk belongs in the party at all. Remember, the new monk paradigm is playing second fiddle to ER ele/ST rit/lots of midline mitigation and providing mostly party heals, with some spot heals for the mitigation oops moments, some more mitigation, and some removal.

3. Energy efficiency is fine (even superior) compared to DH/HD when you consider that (a) all energy costs on a UA bar should be multiplied by 4/3 to account for the missing pip of regen, and (b) the 5e spent on HBurst is a party heal plus a spot heal that the UA bar needs to spend 10e (actually 13.33...e) over 2 casts to match. HBurst only has awful energy efficient if no one has low enough hp to benefit from the spot heal and you're dumb enough to spam it anyway.

Well healing burst doesn't gain that much from Healing prayers (97 vs 113 is 16 hp , and if you change 12 DF to 13, it is only a loss of 13), unless you are running the superior (97 vs 130 is 30 after DF change). It's the only skill to benefit from Healing prayers...

11=97
12=105
13=113
14=122
15=130

I find the higher prot and DF helps since your RoF, Dismiss will heal more and Prot Spirit lasts longer (your Aegis is at 9seconds already). Your DF bonus will count for all Prot spirits, RoF casts.

You said the UA sucked but Orison, Words of Comfort, etc.still heal for 90 ish +DF. Unless he didn't spot heal at all...

Usually on a UA bar I spot heal if the person hits 60-70% since the heals are rather large, that's why it would be less efficient to use Healing Burst. One gift of health is 150ish + DF, dismiss will heal 80ish so you might as well just use DH/HD. If you don't run prot, then patient/cure hex heals 170ish as well, whisper does 150ish if you run that, words of comfort does 150ish with one condition, d-kiss does 140ish with 1 enchant/hex. That's about 1/3 of a typical 500ish-650HP after DF.

A flat 110-130 heal isn't enough to make me run it when I can just use UA/WoH. The bar compression is nice though, I'll admit that. Also, it can heal yourself (horray).

The spike example was bad since I keep thinking of eles but they're not the problem. In Bogroot Growths you get armor ignoring spikes that SY! doesn't cover and unless you prot spirit everyone then Energy Surge/Splinter spam will hit your team (Khabuus isn't all that hard with Pain Inverter).

The reason why I cited it as for light pressure is because you can do the 80ish heal from DH/HD twice. You can't Healing burst twice in a row to cover an AOE.

Healing burst has one advantage over WoH; party healing. But in terms of Healing Burst vs UA, it is bar compression.

Quote:

13 Divine Favor, Healing Burst alone is ~4.421 health regen for ~3.157 energy degen, while UA+DH+HD is 3.51 to ~5.197 health regen for 2.875 energy degen

- from wiki

Cuilan · Nov 14, 2010, 02:03 AM // 02:03

There isn't much noticeable armor ignoring damage "spikes" in that dungeon.

LifeInfusion · Nov 14, 2010, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

There isn't any or much noticeable armor ignoring damage "spikes" in that dungeon.

Putrid explosion, energy surge, crystal wave, ancestor's rage, splinter weapon, spirit's strength, obsidian flame. Painful bond + spirits.

Cuilan · Nov 14, 2010, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Most of those aren't spikes or are at the very end where you fight the boss almost alone.

LifeInfusion · Nov 14, 2010, 02:16 AM // 02:16

If dipping 200-300 armor ignoring damage in HP isn't a spike what is? My warrior got instagibbed once from the spirits I think. We had a HB monk or something along those lines, I was spamming SY! and I think we had an imbagon.

Cuilan · Nov 14, 2010, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Just because they have those skills doesn't mean they'll be used often together or intelligently.

Xenomortis · Nov 14, 2010, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Eh. I put my Monk (WoH Hybrid) through there with a PuG the other day and we didn't have any mitigation beyond myself and a SoS Rit. We might have had a Panic Mesmer, but I can't remember.
There's a fair bit of armour ignoring stuff, but none of it is very scary and PS easily covers it.
The second Monk was actually a Restoration Rit with a laughable build.

Deaths did occur, but only when I had a 2000+ms ping or an outright connection drop. Cons were used in the second level, but wouldn't have made much difference.

LifeInfusion · Nov 15, 2010, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Prot Spirit doesn't cover the 25-30 damage x5 per volley (before Painful bond, which basically doubles this) from Spirit spam. Seed of Life does though.

ItsJustMe · Nov 29, 2010, 03:22 AM // 03:22

The only way I can see HB working well is if you don't need a heal spike on that bar.

Maybe if you ran it with vigorous spirit and had blood bond on a necro. The heal party is a nice bonus, but it's not really a good fit anywhere. The individual heal is lacking as well as the heal party. About the only thing I like on this skill is the recharge. It's a gimmick skill at best.

In PvP you'd have to run 2 or 3 to make it work. I suppose when we hit a degen/hex meta it might work, but the rit can handle it just as well these days.

It's a shame we haven't seen any real innovation for monks since AoF.

reaper with no name · Dec 01, 2010, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Heal spikes aren't the monk's job any more; it's the ER healer's. The monk's job is party healing, cleaning, and prot assist.

Chthon · Dec 01, 2010, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Ran this in a glaiveway Mallyx PUG with a fail para and an otherwise pretty solid team (surprising since some people were new to DoA), including a very good UA. Mimicked the UA's UA during the waves, and the result was, frankly, overpowered as hell. Had problems against Mallyx, though -- whenever the para failed (which was often), the lack of a big spike heal to clean it up often meant someone died. (On second thought though, against any other foe I could have saved with PS or possibly avoided the situation with Aegis.)

Anyway, for a moment of insight: I'm starting to see that the true strength of this skill is neither its bar compression, nor its numbers (although both are nice enough to be sure), but its cast time compression. It really is like casting 2 skills at once. And that solves a lot of the prioritization problems that heavy pressure causes you (assuming you've already solved the energy issues). You never have to chose between throwing the party heal first and hoping it's enough to keep the low guy alive until you can follow with a spot heal or throwing the spot heal first and hoping no one else gets whacked before the party heal comes around. And you also have less to worry about when picking between 2 low guys for a spot heal.

Khomet Si Netjer · Dec 01, 2010, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Healing Burst > WoH and here's why.

HBurst @ 14H 13DF heals for 122 + (8 x 42) = 458
WoH @ 14H 13DF heals for 94 + 109 + 42 = 245

Aside from the clear difference in healing power, Healing Burst makes you virtually immune to pressure and helps clean up party-wide damage from AoE.
WoH cannot help with either of these cases, and in fact only works optimally if the target is <50% health... but if the target is getting spiked enough to need a cast of WoH, then WoH is unlikely to save him... in hardmode you save people with Protective Spirit and/or Seed of Life, and neither WoH nor Healing Burst will be enough. Healing Burst takes care of partywide damage and thus is much more flexible and useful than WoH. :-)

AndroBubbles · Dec 02, 2010, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I am not convinced Healing Burst has the power behind it to replace Word of Healing on your typical hybrid bar. Especially since the target doesn't benefit from the AoE heal (only the regular DF bonus, all though they're indistinguishable - either way, the target only receives one bonus heal). Certainly tests you can run with it may yield favourable results, but I can't see the outcome being any different with Word of Healing.
This problem is exasperated by the fact that the only comparable, non-elite, heal to WoH is Gift of Health, which would screw up Healing Burst.

The AoE heal itself is really small and has little immediate effect. Over time with repeated use of the skill, it'll stack up, but the idea of AoE heals is to reverse or stabilise a situation that's gone wrong - all this skill is good for is dealing with light pressure and I don't need to dedicate my elite for that..

That being said, I think this skill might work well alongside a WoH monk.
I also think this skill might work well with heroes. Heroes tend to be very bad at using heals and use them far too often on targets that don't need it. The constant AoE bonus might make a difference since it's rare a hero will land WoH when the bonus will trigger.

I haven't done any testing myself; this is just speculation on my part.

The thing about this skill is that it now becomes more powerful as you get more party members, just like any other party heal. If you have a party of 8 people, and your attributes are Healing 10+1+1, Prot 10, and DF 11+1, you heal your target for 105, then potentially heal each member of your party for 38 health. I'm going to count this as 38x7 to exclude the regular DF bonus. This comes to a single spell that heals for 371, recharges in 4 seconds and has an instant effect upon casting. For party maintenance, this spell is almost unbeatable. However, it is important to take note that proper protting is in order if you're choosing to use this skill, which is why I adjusted the attributes to allow for a hybrid. The funny thing is that your direct healing is not that much better if you choose to go with a full healing bar; this skill actually functions better on a hybrid bar when used properly.

My take is that for small areas, stick with WoH and other regular staple spells, but for areas that allow for a bigger group, this skill should definitely be considered for serious use, if not made part of the meta for monks.

I Echo Dshot · Dec 02, 2010, 01:51 AM // 01:51

In pve, where spiking is almost nonexistant, healing burst is better then WoH

JDRyder · Dec 07, 2010, 05:26 PM // 17:26

I know I'm coming into this late, but I just started playing again. I will be doing testing of the skill tonight with a healing bar

12+1+1 healing
12+1 DF

Healing burst
Dwaynas kiss
seed of life
Healing seed
Slefless spirit
Words of comfort
Cure Hex
Vigorous spirit

I will most likely put up a video showing it off later tonight when I get home. I love using off builds so this buff is a two thumbs up either way to me.

Xenomortis · Dec 07, 2010, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndroBubbles

The thing about this skill is that it now becomes more powerful as you get more party members...

Well yes, except that's not what's really important. Looking at the total amount healed for party healing skills is misleading and you can't outright compare them to single target heals since they fulfill different functions.

Party-wide healing essentially does one of two things:
1. Topping bars off that you don't waste your single target heals on (this mitigates pressure and is an efficient use of time). This is where things like Divine Healing see use.
2. Stabilising your team after you've been nuked hard - this is where Healer's Boon + Heal Party is good.

Neither of these functions are necessary, but they're certainly useful. Burst fits the first with repeated use.

Word of Healing fills a different function. Word of Healing does something almost invaluable. It will take someone at almost any level of health and stabilise that person. Most of the time you only need to cast Word of Healing and only cast it once to save someone and let prot and any AoE healing you have to take care of them after that (unless they're still taking heavy fire). Only Infuse Health (and Heal Other in a pinch) can fulfill the same role.
Healing Burst lacks the punch to match that.

That said, I'll iterate my previous statement.
I think with two hybrid monks, one with Healing Burst and one with Word of Healing should work fine - provided the WoH monk lets the Burst monk take care of most of the healing and focus on protting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Echo Dshot

In pve, where spiking is almost nonexistant, healing burst is better then WoH

So let me know how you fare against pretty much any Hard Mode Ele boss in NF or EotN.
Or Warrior boss, or Derv (even the non-boss ones hit pretty damn hard).

reaper with no name · Dec 07, 2010, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Heal spikes aren't the monk's job any more; it's the ER healer's. The monk's job is party healing, cleaning, and prot assist.